Mallarme's Poetics
Last week we looked briefly at sound poetry. I spoke about how poetry requires a concentration on the construction of language (just as the visual arts require a focus/concentration on how and what we see). In other words, HOW language creates is just as important as WHAT it creates.
For your first response, I want you to contemplate the innovations/discoveries of Malarme. We will discuss Mallarme's "A Throw of the Dice will Abolish Chance" in class.
Please read the following articles on Mallarme and discuss his poetics (his theory of poetry):
Mallarme bio 1
Mallarme bio 2
Some questions to consider (you don't have to answer all of these, but your response should address at least a few of these questions):
1) What does Mallarme mean by "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words"? Can words exist without ideas? In what sense?
2) How does Mallarme's experimentation with typography connect with the visual arts?
3) Why does Mallarme advocate obscurity in poetry? How does obscurity connect to his sense of poetics?
4) Mallarme makes a distinction between "describing" and "creating." What is the distinction between these actions?
5) In the second article on Mallarme, the author writes, "the 'infinity of shattered melodies' stresses the new multiplicity of associations as well as the breakdown of traditional form." What does the author mean by "multiplicity of associations?"
6) How does Mallarme's poetics challenge your assumptions about language? About poetry?
For your first response, I want you to contemplate the innovations/discoveries of Malarme. We will discuss Mallarme's "A Throw of the Dice will Abolish Chance" in class.
Please read the following articles on Mallarme and discuss his poetics (his theory of poetry):
Mallarme bio 1
Mallarme bio 2
Some questions to consider (you don't have to answer all of these, but your response should address at least a few of these questions):
1) What does Mallarme mean by "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words"? Can words exist without ideas? In what sense?
2) How does Mallarme's experimentation with typography connect with the visual arts?
3) Why does Mallarme advocate obscurity in poetry? How does obscurity connect to his sense of poetics?
4) Mallarme makes a distinction between "describing" and "creating." What is the distinction between these actions?
5) In the second article on Mallarme, the author writes, "the 'infinity of shattered melodies' stresses the new multiplicity of associations as well as the breakdown of traditional form." What does the author mean by "multiplicity of associations?"
6) How does Mallarme's poetics challenge your assumptions about language? About poetry?
posted by marcus silcock at 7:17 AM
61 Comments:
Mallarme, I take, was very gifted in many peoples eyes. Some of his work was published before he died, and even at a young age of 24. Most poets art are not publushed until after their death. The way he took on a poem was risky. It seems not everyone would be willing to accept experimental language and syntax, that I see as very brave.
I think Mallarme means when he says, “You don’t make a poem with ideas, but with words” that you don't always have to sit down and think of an instance that you want to evoke on paper with an "idea" of what you think it should be. He sits down and let the words flow first to make a feeling appear on the page. I believe words can exist without words but in the sense that your not trying to use the word for any particular (normal)sense that many would use the same word. Instead you are using the word as a technique for sound and rhythm.
To Mallarme describing is just words on a page representing objects. Creating is taking something inside of yourself, the poet) and making it into something signifigant something hidden between lines that doesn't just jump out at you.
Mallarme was a very unique poet. His theories of how poetry is created and used was very out of the ordinary but complex. Mallarme brought a lot to poetry and how poetry should be understood especially with his quoted words "the point of a poem is the beauty of the language". This makes perfect sense in the fact that poetry is written with a particular voice and a language that is sometimes understood and not understand.
When Mallarme says "You dont make a poem with ideas but with words", I think he is referring to just picking up a pin and writing words on a paper. Letting the words flow as you write without making a plan as to what youre going to write.
I do believe that words can be created without ideas. I sort of look at it like making a rap. I'm not a rapper but when I try sometimes I just go with the flow of the words, I say whatever comes out. Not thinking about whats going to be next out of my mouth.
Reading the articles about Mallarme, my assumptions changed about poetry. I always thought that poetry is just someone writing about their feelings and emotions. Although thats true Mallarme takes you deeper into the language and makes you pull more out of the poems.
Andrea Brown
Mallarme published allusive and compressed poems. Although he never really gained wide recognition throughout his lifetime, many were published after he died. His first important poem was published when he was 24.
Mallarme said, "The point of a poem was the beauty of the language." I believe that this means that its not so much of trying to figure out what the poem is suppose to mean but to look at the meaning of the words in it and what they mean.
He also said, "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words." I think that he meant that you don't need to sit down and plan on what you are going to be writing about. Basically, just start writing and let the flow of words make the poem.
Brittany Hall
I think that Mallarme's comment/statement: "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" means that poems are move and understood by readers with words written down on the page. Ideas for poems that are stored in your head does't make them poems. Words are the key to a successful poem and should be used to express your true feelings and the ideas that are in your head. Ideas are just thoughts and you must write your ideas down using words for them to be expressed for yourself or others( the readers). In my opinion, ideas are words that are in your head and without ideas, it is not possible for words to be put on paper.
Mallarme's distinction between describing and creating is very clear in his work. I think that the diffrence of the two is that describing something is taking the time out to tell what an object/idea looks or feeling like. A person would describe something that's already there but telling about it in great details. When someone is creating something, it is meant to be orignal and made from the creator(s) on their own. You create something from scratch with your own personal details where as something being describe is someone's else's creation.
Tori Hoyle
There is a big difference in poetry between describing something and creating something. Anyone can use words to describe something for example: red apple or green leaf. But, it takes special types of words and ways of using words with techniques such as juxataposition as we talked about in class to help the reader to visualize an idea better. My definition of "creating" is making images through words appealing to the reader's senses and everyday experiences. It is more detailed than describing.
What Mallarme meant by "making a poem using words..." is that a poem is made of words but the reader must form their own ideas about what it means to them. You can write the same words, but the way you write them, the style and even the punctuation create a different impression. I think it also means that you can write poetry by just writing words that come to your mind and you will discover that those words create an underlined idea. That kind of poetry in not really thought about and is not situational, it is just words.
(Last comment done by Shera Gadson...sorry forgot to put my name)
I feel that Mallarme's poetics are very intriguing because he was so gifted and unique. He was not afraid to experiment and "play" with language in his works. When Mallarme says, "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words," I feel that he means it in a very literal sense. I am sure that a poet as gifted as Mallarme would know that ideas and inspiration are required to create a poem, but he would also know that the ideas and inspiration must be translated into words, which are the building blocks of a poem. I thinks that words are able to exist without ideas, but the words would have no meaning. For example, if the word "pencil" does not conjure the image of its definition into a person's head, then it is simply a word with no meaning.
When Mallarme thinks of "describing" something, I believe that he is thinking of the generic listing of characteristics. When someone is "creating" something, they are forming a very vivid image of that thing.
Stefanie Tallent
Mallarme definitely advocates obscurity in his poetry, and perhaps in all poetry that is of value. He states that "There must always be enigma in poetry." A person shouldn't just be able to open up a book and know exactly what he's looking at. I feel that Mallarme wants to challenge the reader, to make him explore his mind and evoke thoughts that perhaps lie beneath the surface for the reader. He wants the reader to go deeper and enjoy the true art of poetry.
Mallarme's thoughts on the creation of poetry, the creation of this enigma as it may be, are very insightful. "Poetry, being an act of creation, one must draw from the soul of man." Poetry comes from within--it's what the poet creates. It seems to me that if he puts his soul into his creation, the reader should then have to search his own soul, "independent of the world," in order to sort out this enigma, and I think this is part of what Mallarme loves about poetry.
While I think Mallarme beautifully details his poetics, I am still on the fence as to whether or not I am blown away with the idea of poetry and enigma going hand in hand with one another. I definitely think that he makes very valid points, but I don't really agree that all poetry should contain an enigma of some sort. I love being able to open a book of poetry and know right away what I'm looking at. It's relaxing, and it's enjoyable. However, I do enjoy the enigma about which Mallarme speaks, just not as much as being relaxed and smoothed over by poetry that may not be quite so eccentric. Enigma is good, but not for all poetry.
Jessica Dickerson
the first comment posted at 5:24, was Karin Aydelette. I forgot to write my name down
Mallarme's poetry suggested that poems, rather than bluntly stating the author's point of view or emotion, should create a unique voice through words or symbols. Mallarme's poems did have statements to make, but rather than just stating them and rhyming them, he chose to make the reader think and evoke insight. Although Mallarme's poems had and has an effect on people(both positive and negative), I think he wrote poetry more for himself and from his personal inspirations. I support that thought but pointing out the distasteful feedback he got from peers back in his time. But he didn't discontinue using his style, he attempted to justify it, and didn't conform to what they thought was good poetry.
Mallarme makes a distinction between creating and describing. I concluded, from the articles, that he viewed describing something as simple and common, anyone could describe something...why take the time to write it down? But when you create something, you start from scratch and build and form the words through your images or visions. Mallarme's uses of poetry expand my knowledge of the use of language. I do not think there is a right or wrong way to use it. His use of poetry also gave me the idea that poetry in its self can not be right or wrong, or even defined. Poetry is what you make of it, not how you make it. In Mallarme's era, people thought of poetry as being structured, but he challanged them with a different type of poetry that struck them as abstract and incorrect...now his poems are famous!
Dana Plott
I think that when Mallarme says, "you don't make a poem with ideas but with words," he means that poetry is its own form of literature. A novel, for example is based on someone's ideas. Poetry, however does not stem from an idea that the author creates. Poetry does not need a plot or a series of important events. The author may use words to convey an idea, but the words are left up to each individual's interpretation. This is what separates poetry from other forms of literature. There is not one idea that each reader is supposed to understand while reading poetry. The words that make the poem can convey a completely different idea to each person that reads the poem.
I do not think that words can exist without ideas within a person's own vocabulary. If a person hears a word within their vocabulary, they automatically have an idea of what that word is. However, a person can hear a word and form a different idea than the speaker intended. But within a person's own vocabulary words do not exist without ideas.
I think Mallarme advocates obscurity in poetry because it allows his readers to bring their own personal experiences and personality to the text. He used obscurity in his works to create ideas. The ideas he creates are unique to each reader ulitmately accomplishing his goal as a poet.
Megan Foster
Mallarmè’s innovative style left his mark on poetry for all to see. Poetry allows man to create a masterpiece within himself, which is what Mallarme did. It was said that he used ellipses and a very vague sentence formation; there was a clearer sense of the taboo related to everyday issues. When he first started out, people were not really used to Mallarmè’s style. They said “Mallarmé's ideas on poetry and art were considered difficult and obscure.” He believes that the reader must review the lines over and over again, and focus on the music of the words rather than the referential denotation.
Eventually they began to accept his method of poetry. This is the same case with a lot of artist, writers, and poets we’ve witnessed in the past. Shakespeare is one in many of the literary greats that fall into the category of being different, but today is none as a theatrical genius. People are not always accepting to things that they don’t understand, or that are different. That’s just the nature of people. That is how Mallarmè became famous, by being different and standing out. If Mallarmè were to just be like everyone else, he might have still been successful, but it kind of takes the fun out of it.
~James DeGraffenreid~
At 9;36 I post my comment and I forgot to put my ID number down. I am in your 10am class on mon,wed,and fri. and I am Tori Hoyle 8040
I think Mallarme is an interesting poet with a huge poetic past and has contributed to many different types of work. I think "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" suggests that with the words, bring up certain ideas and with that, not just one idea. Also, the poem could have a central idea and Mallarme uses images that help illustrate it, but the reader can interpret the poem any way he/she chooses. I do think that words can exist without ideas. You can easily just say a word without any perception as to why you said it and then come up with an idea. Some thought of Mallarme's work to be "pure poetry" and that the point of the poem was the beauty of language. His typography connects with the visual arts, because some of his poems went on to be illustrated by painters and he alos communicated his ideas about art through poetry. There is a distinction between describing and creating. Mallarme would hint between the lines at meanings rather than state them clearly. I'm sort of unclear about what "multiplicity of associations" means except than when it said, there were multiple states of the soul rather than a story in its own right.
Johnna' Burns
I believe that Mallarme was a very intelligent writer who started very young. He thought outside of the box and that made his work have an edge to it that wasn't common in this period of time. When Mallarme was younger he found that he had a gift for writing, he followed his dreams against the odds of his family and opened the world's eyes to a different style of writing.
Mallarme was a very unique poet. Some of his ideas were really risky... but at the same time they had meaning behind them. to me "you don't make a poem w/ ideas but w/ words" means that.... well when you sit down to write a poem you're not really trying to think of an idea... you just sit down and you write. It's your words that gives the reader an idea of how you were feeling at the time that the poem was written. That's what makes poetry so exciting to read. As the reader your job is to understand what the poet is trying to get you to see.
The difference between decribing and creating is when you decribe something you're either looking at it or you have seen it... in order to dceribe what it looks like. a creation comes from scratch. It's something created for someone else to decribe.
Ashlee Richards
I believe that Mallarme was a very intelligent writer who started very young. He thought outside of the box and that made his work have an edge to it that wasn't common in this period of time. When Mallarme was younger he found that he had a gift for writing, he followed his dreams against the odds of his family and opened the world's eyes to a different style of writing.
Mallarme's statement "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words," means that you start writing from your heart and what is inspiring you, but what actually paints those pictures to the reader are the words on the page. The words in the poem brings everything to life and presents the authors thoughts and feelings to the reader. Words can exhisit without ideas and have no meaning to the reader or author at all. Mallarme could write a poem that we read in class and to us we can grasp some of his points, but we don't know the true meaning as to why he wrote what he did. We may not interpret it they way that he meant it or in a completely different sense.
Mallarme makes a distinction between "describing" and "creating" and the difference is that through describing you are creating. You use elaborate clips and phrases as a writer to get your point across, but it is the reader who creates those phrases into whole thoughts.
For me Mallarme's poetic challenges my assumptions about language by making me look at the work from a different light. Things don't always have to be in a set order and he has shown that great things are created when you think outside the box. I now believe that poetry is what ever you make it. It doesn't have to be a certain lenght or rhythem because there are no real guidelines to poetry. Mallarme has shown that as long as you include metaphors, allusions and other forms of language you can write what ever inspires you. Tiffany Buie
I believe that words and ideas exist interchangeably. Without certain ideas certain words would not be created and without words, how could an idea be created or expressed? When Mallarme states that " You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" he means that a poem is a play of words that create imagery, appeals to the senses, and makes you relate. Unlike a school book where ideas are just placed orderly on pages for the purpose of information.
Mallarme's distinction between "describing" and "creating" seems to be what set him apart from other poets during his time. In his interview he stated how describing an object is simply naming what you see, whereas a "step-by-step" discovery of an object counts as creating. It was obvious when reading that he felt very strongly about this distinction.
His poetics only challenge my assumptions of poetry, being that I love poetry(certain kinds), to dig a little deeper when writing and reading it.
Mallarme was meant to challenge the "normal" from the beginning of his life. He refused to follow his families traditions when it came down to earning his living.
Why should his writing have been any different? (traditional)
Just because poets before him followed the traditional ways of writing poetry Mallarme, realized that he had a gift with words and went with it.
By saying, "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" he let go of the traditional ways. What I think he means is you do not need a specific idea to create beauty. The idea of the poem comes from the words themselves. When we wrap ourselves up into the idea, mood and theme of our writing we tend to loose words. Without words we do not have poetry and when it is polluted by organization we never really can get our ideas across.
Mallarme's distinction between "describing" and "creating" is this. When a writer composes poetry or a painter paints a picture it is the art of creating. The fact that an individual can create something so magnificent is difficult. Because it is difficult to create, an artist should make every effort to simply create not describe. If the audience can just read or see the whole picture at one glance then it is not that the work is not art, it is just work, but when the auduience has to decipher the meaning then it is a work of someones artistic ability to create.
~lisa thompson~
When Mallarme said, you dont make a poem with ideas, you make it with words, i belive he ment that when you write poetry, word spew from you. This words dont nesisarly form ideas, they do however, form feelings, which poetry is all about. In this sense, words can exist with out ideas because words can provoke feelings instead of ideas.
Mallarmes experimentation connects in the way that when you look at the poem, you visulize something. Before you even begin to read it, you can look at it and, for example, if it looks like a bird, you can assume the poem will be about a bird. This connection brodened the horizons of poetry into more then just words.
Mallarme advocates obscurity because he believes it envokes objects. He belives the only goal of liturature is to envoke objects. In this aspect, I must agree with him because if poetry does not envoke objects, it becomes plan and boring.
Sally Hinson
I feel that Mallarme advocated obscurity in poetry because he considered poems that are different from the traditional are beauty whereas; poems that are confined were boring. Obscurity connects to his sense of poetics because his poems were difficult to understand. He does not simply state the ideas being expressed in his poems but rather he evokes readers to read between the lines and create their own meanings.
Mallareme believed that poems lack anonymity when an object is directly named. In other words, describing the subject or an object. It takes away the creating process in the minds of the readers. He feels that readers take greater pleausure in revealing the ideas being conveyed line by line on their own.
I think that this writer was very unique. He was probably very vital to the begining of writing. it states that he was inspired by Charles Baudelaire and I think that all some people need is a little inspiration and then he has went on to inspire many others after his time. His writing were very famous and others were in aw by him. I think that you can defintly find ways to express yourself without ideas because sometimes it is only feelings not the ideas that you get you muse from to create some of the most beautiful things with.
Mallarme gave language a new twist something that a lot of people were probably not expecting and it was something that i think makes me want to challenege myself in writing poetry. The poetry will always be different after Marllarme put his spin on it and I think that it was a really good thing that he did.
Adrienne Mann
Without a doubt, Mallerme has truly been an influential poet,
especially in his ability to alter any perceptions of the meaning
"poetry" itself. Through his view of poetry, we see it taking on a
much more powerful statement, moving from just the figurative
meaning, but actually drawing a deeper appreciation for the words
a poem is composed of. Therefore, typography is extremely essential
to understanding his poems. Thoughtful use of diction and syntax
allows Mallerme to views it as "raw beauty", which we normally do not
pay attention to. Observing this forces the reader to constantly focus in
and out from the overall way the poem is constructed and the context
within. Basically, Mallerme feels one fuels the other: writing a poem
should be just as important as the way you write it too.
Mallerme's style has definitely changed my way of how I've considered
poetry to be. It's more than just rhyming meters, and expressing heartfelt emotions; it is taking the makeup of the poem into consideration as well.
The way it is written is unusual, but also very interesting.
Airreia Smith
The comment posted at 12:53 was by Hong Ton. I forgot to type my name.
I believe that Mallarme meant that poetry isn't an idea. Poetry can't be defined, only expressed. Ideas give you a "blueprint" to work with, but the words are your "woods & nails". I feel that Mallarme said this without saying it, when he said "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words". From his point of view I don't think words can exist without ideas. Mallarme advocated obscurity in poetry because it made people think and search for te "true" essence of poetry. Obscurity connects with his sense of poetry because he wrote poetry that forced you to read and re-read and think. Mallarme's poetry doesn't challenge my assumptions about langage but, it does challenge my sense of poetry. I'm still not use to poems being free of sructure or not having to rhyme even. Poetry, fom my new understanding, is a cultivation of words, images, and feelings.
Jonathan Bryant
" You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words." Imagine you go to a play with a preconcieved notion of what it is about. When you get there everything is right, there are chairs, ushers, lights the whole works. The curtain goes up and there aren't any props.The actors work completely with air and each other. You then, are left to listen what every action is meant to simulate. The story changes then from what you thought was going to happen to what you are hearing and seeing happen. The same is true about Mallarme poems. He provided a way for a poem to be left viod of any personal connection so the reader could navagate his or her own way through the idea.
Before I read Mallarme's poems I believed that you could find what the author ment to say just by reading the words on the page.Mallarme uses every meaning of a word known to man to promote free thought through poetry.
Mallarme makes the distinction between "describing" and "creating." To describe a thought with words is easy, "the clear blue sky, the big dark rock" but to create a thought through words is much more personal, "deep inside weighs the shadow hidden in the depth by this alternate sail." Creating moves you to put in action a thought or idea instead of being told what you need to see.
Rebekah B. Sanders
I think that Mallarme' was an unmatched poet. He wasn't like other poets, that I have read, there was something unique about him. I think that by his poems being considered difficult and obscure it made him stand out from the other French poets, which to me is a good thing, because it tells people that you don't follow others but you are your own person.
The quote by Mallarme', "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" means to me that, you don't think about what you are going to write. I think that it says that you write down words, and as you write down words they come together to make sentences, that evenually form poems.
I think that obscurity connects to Mallarme's poetry, because obscurity can mean difficult to understand, which was how some people perceived his poetry. And, as I stated above that can be a good thing because it let people that you are on another level of understanding.
Tammy McRae
I feel that Mallarme's point of making a poem with words instead of ideas is a valid point. Also, I feel that words can exist with ideas, but ideas can not exist without words. In any point in time, you can say things and they not have any meaning, (i.e., no ideas come into mind when talking), but on the other hand, an idea, i think, can not be formed unless there are words from another person spoken to describe the idea to another person.
Also, there is a definite difference/distinction in the meanings of the words "describing" and "creating". In describing something, a person most often uses words that eveybody understands. However, when creating something, a person might use words that not many people understand. Also, describing can be seen as a way of creating something, as well as something being created could be a way of describing something else that has already been shown and visualized.
Chris Swaim
Mallarme poems seemed as though they gained their popularity by their deep meaning. Mallarme himself seemed liked an extremely deep person and very well educated when it came to his writing. Throughout some of the reading he compared music and it's sound to poetry.
I feel mallarme's meaning of the phrase "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" was that the words should be what make the poem.He felt that the whole point of a poem should revolve around the language and it's beauty.Mallarme most certainly did believed that words could exist woithout ideas.
It was not until reading the interview of Mallarme, that i truly understood what his poetry was saying. I guess that i had a Parnassian approach to poetry, pointing out an object then describing it. Through the Baudelairean approach the who poem can describe an object or object through the use of language.
When Mallarme said "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" I think he meant that words in themselves are the things that you use to make up ideas, which in turn could end up becoming a poem. I think words can exist without ideas, in the sense that words are what build the basis of ideas. So I think they can be used on their own, but when words are used in an idea I think the meaning is brought to life easier.
Mallarme's experimentation with typography connected with the visual arts because when using it, it went past just being a poem that you read, and created a since of visual stimulation out of the poem. The typography not only added meaning to the poem when read, but it also made it something to look at and observe before even reading the words.
Brianna Smith
Mallarme was a very unique poet, his first important poem was published at the age of 24. His ideas and approach to poetry was so different from any other I have heard. He says that "the point of a poem was the beauty of the language." By this I think that he means that the point of reading a poem is not to understand the words but to get a feel for and understand what they provoke within you as a reader. If you pay close attention one can see the beauty of a poem's language and what the poet is really trying to say.
The distinction between describing and creating can be determined differently by different people; however, I think that with describing you are providing detail about an image of some sort or something that already exists. But creating is the process of making a creation, something of your own. When you create you are kind of putting a patent on something, its yours, its original.
Mallarme says, "you don't make a poem with ideas, but with words." By this I think that he means that a poem is not composed by the ideas that it consists of the but the words that stem from those ideas. When you sit down with a pen and paper, its the words that begin to flow that come together to incorporate an idea or a series of ideas
Na'Kol M Curtis (4147)
From my understanding, Mallarme believed that poetry served to demostrate the beauty of language rather than to communicate ideas. Thus, words can exist and can be joined with other words to create an interesting compilation of sounds or visual image, even if the resulting phrases offer little logical meaning. In terms of imagery on the printed page, Mallarme's spatially descending use of typography is reminiscent of a sinking ship - which I believe might be a central theme of the poem. Obscurity is the author's method of emphasizing the beauty he values in language. By only hinting at the true meaning of his work, he seems to want the reader to gain understanding through examining the visual clues and musical qualities provided.
As a reader, I struggled to understand not only the meaning, but Mallarme's intent in A Throw of the Dice Never Will Abolish Chance. I could not determine what he truly wishes to convey, whether it be an image, a certain human characteristic he finds important, or other message. I believe my lack of understanding stems from my preconceived notions on the purposes of language (to communicate ideas clearly) - I find it difficult to discover meaning in a written work without paying attention to the actual words.
Tineke Misegades
In my view of Mallarme's poetry, you can really see the distinction that he uses in his writings or poems between just odrinary writing. What I think he means by "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" is poetry is something that you can't sit down and plan out..how u want it to exactly go. You have to base it off of your feelings & desires.Real Poetry can't be planned...to let it flow!! This shows that you cant just write words down and hope that they find their way on to the page to form some extrordinary piece of work.Look way beyond the words and see the Beauty.
Until, I read the interview with Mallarme...I couldn't quite make out a correct interpatation of his poetry & writing style like I wanted to b/c I was being lead on. He says, "that the point of a poem, was beauty of a language." I took this quote as, one can't just read a poem & get an actual main thought of a poem..U have to pay attention to the language to really get what the author is trying to convey to you.
Although, in his period many many authors or poets were writing I guess, in that traditional style. But somehow, still writing poetry. Mallarme was different and unique. He was conformed to just one way or style of writing. After reading all of this, I am really chanllenged through my poetry...b/c when I sit down to write I kind of have a planned way of what I want it to be like. I really don't feel when I write..it's just somehow automatically there, without no way of getting there. (sorry for mispelled words or fragments)
Samantha Ray
I think that Mallarme's comment: "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words" is a statement going against the way that mainstream poetry was begining to turn into a collage of allusions and metaphors, that sometimes the average reader could not comprehend. To NOT make a poem of ideas but rather words seems to be more of a focus on simplicity and techniques lilke alliteration, word play if you will - rather than long wordy masterpieces.
John Elliott
The poet Mallarme challenges the readers of his poetry to search deep within themselves to view his words as more than just words. Mallarme believed that the reader shouldn't focus on the group of words to find meaning, but on the individual words themselves. Mallarme felt that when you describe something, you're just giving a basic definition. When you create, you're searching for a deeper meaning. In order to find a deeper meaning, one has to search beyond what is already thought or seen.
L. Nicole Parker
what Mallarme is refering to when he stated "you don't make a poem with ideas, but with words," means that a poem is to be read for how it is written. when reading poetry you should have a clear head, therefore getting the meaning of the words in the poem, and not what you feel the words mean. Mallarme used many unusual words in his poems just beacuse he felt that the everyday odinary words were to simple and boring. and with these other words, he left room for the audience to reasd between the lines. as far as words being able to exsist with out ideas, i dont believe that is true. every person has their own pictures of words, but when reading Mallarme poetry; clearing your idea and reading his words explaiins the idea of word apposed to ideas.
Mallarme's poetics challange my assumptions about language almost completly. his choice of words in "A throw of the Dice" was difficlut to read. i feel that the poetry and poets we are going to be working with in this class, especially Mallarme, will broaden my language and vocabulary both poetically and also to my everyday uses.
Stephanie Kuebler
The key to understanding Mallarme’s work is to take it piece by piece rather than just reading through and looking for a meaning in the entire work. It is easier to take it word by word creating idea by idea until all the ideas fit together this is what is mean by "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words”. He uses obscure words as well as everyday words that he gives new meaning to, to challenge the reader to think more deeply about each individual words, each individual thought, without taking for granted the over all meaning of the work. Mallame’s connection to painters and other visual artist helped him to create images not only through the words on the page but the way they were written and placed. His use of capital letter and odd page structure give you visual clues to the meaning of the words on the page here once again making the individual words the most important part of the work. I think there is an important division between describing and creating description is difficult because you must portray something that is concrete that already exist and make it understandable to the audience so that everyone feels the same thing about something they have a preconceived notion about. When you create something you are revolutionizing an idea of your own making something not nobody has heard or seen before so you don’t have to be as careful about making it clear because it is so much more left up to interpretation. Mallarme challenges me to look at poetry’s form in a different light and read more closely into the meaning of words as well as their individual place in the work, because they all have significance, it's trying to break everything down and put it back together to find the greater meaning that is the tricky park.
-Alex Laube
Arnetta Hardy posted at 4:49pm
Mallarme and his ideas about poetry not only influence poetry but the readers as well. His obscurities and dertermination to make the reader think for themselves is legendary in its own way. To see because of your own imagination and not because of what is fiction and what nonfiction was Mallarme's undertone to me in his writings. His goal was that his readers would see the words in his poetry not for what it means by Webter's standards but their own. To think outside of the box and find the underlying message. Whatever that may be. Mallarme's intense use of words which gives one a new sence of self is what gives Mallarme's work meaning and distinguishes it from all other. ~De'Anna S. Graham~
i am comment 18 and my name is Natisha Webb
Mallarme was a phnonominal poet who was really intent on making tghe reader use an abstract form of thinking.
In the articles i read mallarme was compared to the artist of to day who practice a more abstract form of art in that they place things or paint on the canvass and leavee it to the discretion of the viewer to interpret what ever it is they think it is . Only mallermae did this with words the way he talked about people not limiting themselves to simply a dictionary definition of a word through his freely written style of words it was left up to the reader to use their discretion and to use their imagination as to what they thought the poem was saying. Basically because he drew no clear cut guidlines as to what the meaning of the poem was to be they were to usse their imagination and because of his style no one could really challenge weather or not one view was right or wrong. It was said that he wanted peole to view what was in front them like for instance if you saw a play wth make believe events such as flying people at that present moment it should be that the play is so intriguing or good that you are consumed in that the character being portrayed can actuall fly. Just as in poetry he was challenged the mind to go beyond the ordinary and to think freely or imaginative in the way maybe a child who does not know of diction and such things to take the poem and interpret it for what you thought you read and not have to worry about someone telling you misinterpreted it. In conclusion i feel that he was very influential and that his style of writing has affected not only poetry but art as a whole. Anthony Headen.
Mallarme uses typography as a type of visual art. He uses his words on the page in very unique and weird way. The way he arranges the words on the page in my opinion seems to a type of art by it's self.
Mallarme does make a distinction between describing and creating. He uses words to creat new meanings to them. He uses the words in everyday language in a very unique way. He uses them to mean there dictionary meaning but he also uses them to mean several different other things at the same time. After he does this he uses a lot of more words to add more emphasize on them. He uses a great deal of description to make sure that the reader comes away from his poems with the meaning and understanding of it that he wants the audience to have.
Kelsey Bowers English 106 10am class
The purpose of art in any form is to give the observer an image of reality and have them gain a different view of certainty that they held before. This, however, is the artists’ view of reality, it is just an impression. Real life is real life. Everything else is just an impression. Impressions come in all forms; a picture, a poem, a song, an article, a novel. An artist creates a form that is real to him or herself. A part of art is to cause the audience to think. it touches a nerve and causes you to analyze it. I think Malarme's diction is used just for that purpose. He wanted you to bring back language. So by using words that he did, he caused you to have to look up what they meant to get the full meaning of what he was trying to put out there.
Amber Mains
Mallarme was a very gifted poet who began writing poetry at a very young age. He set himself apart from the more traditional poets by experimenting with his own ideas pertaining to language which many people considered to be "difficult and obscure."
Mallarme advocates obscurity in poetry because he does not want the meaning to just jump out at the reader from just reading it one time. He wants the reader to study the poem in depth and to read between the lines inorder to figure out what it is about.
I think when Mallarme says, "you don't make a poem with ideas, but with words," he is implying that poetry can be created just by writing words off the top of your head. You don't have to sit down and plan out what your poem is going to be about inorder to create it.
Kimberly Richtarik
I believe that Malarme was a man that wanted to challenge the way things were. Up until his time poetry had been only one way and that was considered to be the right way to do it. But Malarme didn't want to accept that and he didn't, he challenged people to think harder and deeper, and he wanted to challenge the way that was considered to be "right". Also, he was brave because he put his new poetry out there and even made people upset. But i think that it was for their own good because nothing can grow without challenge or change. Just by using words that we don't use on an everyday basis pushed the envelope, but the meaning of those words were common and used everyday. I believe Malarme is brilliant and even though he wasn't the smartest he excelled in what he knew and wanted others to begin to understand his genius mind.
i posted at 11:55 am, i forgot to put my name its Aprylle Morrison
Mallarme used his talent, his genius really, in language to create a poetry that would be unaccepted at first, but then respected for its unique qualities. Mallarme commented that "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words", which is how he wrote his poetry. He began with words and not an idea and he let the words lead him and develop into an idea Mallarme surrounded himself with artists of all types, including painters, musicians, and writers. I feel that Mallarme probably respected the creativity and work of all the different craftsmen. Much of art comes from feelings and not ideas. In my opinion, Mallarme's experimentation with typography was a way to express his poetry, his love of language using a visual representation. I also believe that this was another way for him to add a musical/lyrical quality to his poetry. By spacing the words and phrases, Mallarme could control the flow of the poetry especially if the reader read it aloud.
I have to agree with Mallarme's statement, "Indeed, if a being of average intelligence and an insufficient literary preparation should by chance open a book written along these lines and pretend to enjoy it, there would be a misunderstanding". His style challenges my concept of poetry which is the kind of poetry you hear in elementary school, verses of songs, and my own attempts when required by English teachers in middle school. As with many great artists, Mallarme genius and work was recognized and appreciated more after his death than during his life.
Patrick Nelson
I believe that Mallarme was a great and innovative poet. I agree with what he said about, "You can't make poems with ideas, but with words" because a poem starts out as an idea in your mind that you have to put into words in order to write an actual poem. Poems are made of words so if you have no words, you have no poem. Words can exist without ideas because you say many different words without having an idea, but just because you want, or have to say something.
Mallarme advocated obscurity in poetry because he wanted to challenge the reader of his poetry. He didn't want to put easy words together in a poem for an easy-read, that's why he went and looked in the dictionary for old words that were not used that much anymore for a certain meaning.Obscurity connects to his sense of poetics, because it is different from the norm, and some people may like obscurity, and some may dislike it, but I believe Mallarme wanted more people to appreciate it.
~Kasi Perkins
The main idea that I got from the second article was that Mallarme had a goal to revive the life of poetry that has been lost in traditional views. When he states that you can't make poems with idea but with words makes perfect sense. Words have more powerful influence that any idea. The idea can only be expressed my words anyway. And Mallarme's usage of typography connect with visual arts because the of the way that he presents the poems and the movement that it reflects. Also, Mallarme wants to support the activity and vibrantness of how poetry is supposed to be.
-Amelia O'Neal-
According to one of Mallarme's theories, nothing lies beyond reality, but within this nothingness lie the essence of perfect forms. I think this is what he is trying to get the reader to understand or relate to in his works, he feels it is the task of the poet to reveal and crystallize these essences. Mallarme's poetry employs condensed figures and an unorthodox system beacuse he believed that the point of a poem was the beauty of the language thus that is what he meant by "You don't make a poem with ideas, but with words". Words make up ideas and with using those words it gives the reader the essence of an idea. Thus through words makes ideas.
Jennifer McGuirk
The main idea that I got from the second article was that Mallarme had a goal to revive the life of poetry that has been lost in traditional views. When he states that you can't make poems with idea but with words makes perfect sense. Words have more powerful influence that any idea. The idea can only be expressed my words anyway. And Mallarme's usage of typography connect with visual arts because the of the way that he presents the poems and the movement that it reflects. Also, Mallarme wants to support the activity and vibrantness of how poetry is supposed to be.
-Amelia O'Neal-
The main idea that I got from the second article was that Mallarme had a goal to revive the life of poetry that has been lost in traditional views. When he states that you can't make poems with idea but with words makes perfect sense. Words have more powerful influence that any idea. The idea can only be expressed my words anyway. And Mallarme's usage of typography connect with visual arts because the of the way that he presents the poems and the movement that it reflects. Also, Mallarme wants to support the activity and vibrantness of how poetry is supposed to be.
-Amelia O'Neal-
I think it is a shame that Mallarme was such a gifted man, yet was not recognized until after his death. He contributed so much the the study of poetry and poetics. The way he wrote so unique influenced other poets and exposed everyone to the fact that there doesn't have to be certain guidelines when expressing thoughts and feelings. He opened a new door for all writers and with his interest in language it was no suprise that he was such a successful writer. I also thought it was interesting how there were early signs such as his only success in school was in language. It is evident that he was born to write and established a new way of thinking, he was a true guide for poetry writers.
Whitney Johnson
Malarme has a distinct way with words. When I first read this it made no sense to me. It was just a bunch of words on paper, but when i reread it several time i experimented on ways to read it. I thought it was weird how he used different typography to emphasise certain words, just like artists use contrasting colors to bring out a specific object. I found out that if yu read the same sized letters its almost like he has multiple poems in his Poem. For example
"IT WAS
THE NUMBER
EVEN IF IT EXISTED
EVEN IF IT BEGAN AND EVEN IF IT CEASED
EVEN IF SUMMED UP
EVEN IF IT ENLIGHTENED
THIS WOULD BE
CHANCE" Its almost a poem in itself. His use of typography draws you eye all over the page and stays on certain type while glancing over others. Like a picture drawing you over the painting. Its up to you to interprit the poem or picture.
Kim Ludewig
Mallarme used such interesting words that sometimes it is hard to understand what exactly he is talking about. I dont think that you can really take the things he says for face value you have to read a little more into them. He is a very creative writer he creates his own works as opposed to just describing something. when you are creating you have to come up with your own ideas and your own feelings about them. If you are just describing something you are just telling about it in detail not making it up yourself.
Kimberly Grimes 5588
To "describe" anything, even an abstract idea, one must use words to evoke a particular thought or picture in another's mind. Description allows imagery for a certain object, leaving no room for free-flowing imagination. Mallarme chooses, therefore, to "create" images, thoughts, feelings in the minds of his readers, provoking their own thinking and creativity to make the poem come to life for them. He challenges their perspective by leaving his own ambiguous and unclear. Not only does Mallarme use words for their linguistic value, but also for their symbolism and visual appearance. His use of syntax and the sight of words on the page gives new effects to the poem: broken rhythms, changing tones, wavering meanings.
Mallarme advocates obscurity in poetry and literature, using it himself as a tool to "create" rather than "describe." "Obscure" can be defined as: faintly perceptable, indistinct, undistinguished, ambiguous, vague. Mallarme used words obscurely, in a pure form, letting the readers delve into the definition and reality of the words (or symbols) he is using. His theory of poetics could be summed up by saying that, "nothing lies beyond reality; but in its nothingness lies the essence of perfect forms." Mallarme appreciates pure, untainted language in a simple form. In this sense, he makes his poems with words, free of ideas. Mallarme writes his poetry to give new associations to old words, to stimulate the reader's perception, to present unseen images; while still leaving space for the interpretation of the audience. He writes, and lets an idea envelop his words, instead of letting his words describe an idea.
Katie Rogers
I think that he leaves his poetry for youo to wonder about and he wants you to make you form your own persption on the poem. he gives you his mood and what the subject is but then he wants you to comes up with yur idea and take his poetry in your own way. everyone takes it in a different way that is why i think people like it so much. His style and his tactics are bizzare and creative. he has the kind of writtings that make you read them again and again before you really find out what you think about them. i read some his stuff 2 or 3 times and everytime i came up with a new idea about it and what i thought he was trying to say. BREA CHENEY
When Mallarme says “You don’t make a poem with ideas, but with words” he is saying that it is impossible to create a poem without words. All poetry begins in the mind, but words are required to communicate the poem to the reader. Without words, poems would just be random thoughts in our brain. Words act like a bridge that connects the artist’s thoughts to the audience. So in order for poetry to be poetry it must be written or expressed verbally with words.
Mallarme’s experimentation with typography relates well with his quote above. Reading Mallarme’s “A Throw of the Dice” is like walking into an art museum and looking at an exhibit. The meaning of the work may be difficult to distinguish at first, but you can see that the artist emphasized particular parts of the piece. When you read “A Throw of the Dice” the exact meaning of the poem may be hard to recognize. However, there are some words and phrases that are stressed through bold lettering and space. This allows the reader to gain some insight into the work.
-Paul Gilliland
Steins' poetry is very interesting to me. It kind of puts me in the mind of my childhood, like that of Dr. Suess or maybe even the Chica Chica Boom Boom series. Her poetry is cute, which allows you to only look on the surface of it to understand it. However, could there really be a deeper meaning? I like her use of repetitive phrases. This technique along with the use of symbols just as dogs, monkeys, love, etc. gives the poem a certain rhythm or flow that makes the poem more interesting and nastalgic. I would like to read more poems like this or more work from poets similar to Stein.
She must not reheat his sins
Once a woman has forgiven
But has a woman forgiven
What she must not reheat
His sins for
Break-fast shall not be reheated
Has she forgiven her man
His sons shall not be reheated
For break-fast, has a woman forgiven?
Na'Kol M Curtis 4147
If I may change the topic a little bit, I'd like to say a little something about Negritude. I am absolutely fascinated by this type of poetry. I love the use of symbols in a surrealistic way that tries to answer philosophical questions such as the meaning of life, and how the world was made. This type of peotry, I feel is better spoken than read which for the most part I feel how all poetry should be identified. We can try to gather our own meaning from the words on the page (Which Mallarme did) but to actually hear it from the author can you truly get the feelings and emotions that are trying to be expressed. (William Pinkerton)
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